In this episode of the Enterprise Monetization Podcast, Sandeep sits down with Ian Block, VP of Sales and Marketing at ACE.
Hi, my name is Sandeep and welcome to the 18th podcast of “The Enterprise Monetization” podcast. In this podcast, we invite thought leaders from enterprise monetization space, that CPQ billing usage, so that you all can learn about challenges, opportunities and best practices in enterprise monetization. Today, our guest is Ian. Ian has deep expertise in sales and operations. He was most recently the head of sales and ops, or the SMB business unit at Akerna. And if you don't know what Akerna does, Ian is going to help us educate in a few minutes on that. Ian started his career at Sogeti as a consultant. He then spent a couple of years on the e-commerce side before transitioning full time into the cannabis industry, where he works on ancillary technology solutions for operators and government entities. And fun fact, Ian also started his venture around automation services for the cannabis industry very, very recently. Ian with this, a huge welcome to the show.
Thanks, Sandeep. Happy to be here. And looking forward to the conversation.
Awesome. So before we start, can you share a fun fact about yourself other than that you're working in the cannabis industry and you just started your own startup around this?
The cannabis industry is certainly entertaining and always good topic of conversation. But another fun fact about me, I'm an adrenaline junkie at heart. Maybe why I'm willing to take risks pretty often. So I grew up racing, motocross, love surfing, rock climbing, skiing. So love my fair share of adrenaline. So it’s a little bit about me.
You got more than most, I guess.
Sure. This keeps me energized and entertained. That's for sure.
I love that. Can you also provide this quick summary of the background, like why did you make the changes? Where did you do that, and just give us the arc of your career?
Sure. I was actually a collegiate athlete. And after I was getting done playing Division One soccer, I tried to play for a little bit. And things were working out for me. So I had to put on my big boy pants and go find a career for myself. So I majored in Business Informatics at Indiana University, which is kind of a splash of computer science plus business. So I made myself fairly marketable in the space and got a gig with Sogeti to do consulting, because I don't know about you, but you're an entrepreneur, Sandeep. So maybe not much as I get. I like to go really deep into a few things, burn myself out, and then go to the next thing, and then go really deep, and then burn myself out and go to the next thing. So at being a consultant, it's really nice to be able to do that where you can get deployed into a lot of things really quickly. So that was great for an early career is getting into MDM projects, getting into ERP implementations, getting into Ecom, which I actually found the most value about. So I did a big project at Sogeti, and found myself really engaged with the e-commerce space, which led me into “Arrow.” Arrow is probably the biggest company you've never heard of. They sell electronics, they're kind of the middleman. So any of your Apple products probably were sourced through them. They’re traditional B2B and they were starting B2C, so launch arrow.com and going into individual engineers that were messing with Raspberry Pi's and that sort of realm, so got into the e-commerce space and was able to really dive deep into that technology. I did a couple cloud migrations and things of that nature to have fun. I was really having a good time. And then a cannabis company approached me and said, “We really need some expertise over here.” It's also full remote and have a lot of good benefits for you. And we need to have you as part of the team and they kind of plucked me away and I've been in there ever since and it's been quite a wild ride as you guys probably would have imagined.
Awesome. That's a good story. I want to produce so you talk about Indiana that's where I started my life in the US. Everybody had more than from error to like Comcast or whatever.So I remember seeing errors.
Exactly.
Awesome. So let's talk more about cannabis and Quote-to-Cash and Akerna. So tell us more?
Sure. So what we do in the cannabis industry is we offer a software solution for point of sale, and what we coin a seed to sale technology. So if you took your traditional toast point of sale, and plugged it into a dispensary or cannabis operator, they're going to be out of compliance like that. Because the state really cares about all the transaction that you've done as a dispensary. They also care from a cultivator how many plants they have, they really take care all of the transactions plans, processing jobs in their jurisdiction, so they really care about that or they just want it in their software so we can check a box as a government. We won't dive into the details, but we all know what happens. So you have to go and provide or acquire a point of sale software or a seed to sale tracking software for your business entity as a cannabis operator. So you can tell Uncle Sam, all they need to know. And then you can run your business and have an ROI and utilize those tools. So you can improve efficiencies, improve loyalty and improve the automation that you need to run your business, from your tech stack.
Understood. So as I understand that, you're not selling into cannabis operators, or businesses themselves. And then they sell the product of the cannabis to the end consumer. So you're kind of a B2B.
Exactly. We are B2B play, and we don't sell to being consumers. That's what the dispensers and operators do. Absolutely, Sandeep.
Got it, Ian. We're going to talk more about the business model, and you talked about seed the sale? Can you talk about what are the skills look like? Does it have a subscription? Is it consumption based? Is it sales lead? Or can a cannabis operator buy this thing online from you?Can you talk a little bit more about all of these things?
I'll actually wrap it into the full origin of how something will come to be, Sandeep. So let's utilize Texas. Texas isn't legal. It's still a schedule one drug in Texas. And let's say Texas passes legislation, where they want to open up a medical or adult use market. So what happens from a government space and the government entity, they will go put out an RFP to purchase software to be a track and trace solution. So a government really cares about all of the plants in their jurisdictions, they care about all the transactions, they don't care about just one dispensary. They care about all their dispensaries, all the legal operators. So they go out, they put out an RFP for this track and trace solution. And they'll go basically acquire that solution, then they'll put it in, they'll implement, they'll put that in and have that as their central repository for all the plant data, all the processing data, all this sales transactions data. And we also do that at a kernel. So we had, we had three contracts with government entities. And as you know that persona is a lot different. That sales strategy requires lobbyists. It requires RFP writing that is a totally separate one that comes up every now and then. But we do see that Minnesota is legalizing, Maryland's doing an adult program this year, Delaware, just past adult use. So things are happening. And from a B2B space that's how we leverage kind of those sales tactics of getting in and getting in early and writing the best we canRFP responses and working with lobbyists. After that, then they're going to put out the ability to win an award licenses. They're going to ask for requests, they're going to basically read all of these responses for operators to be licensed operators in Texas. Once they get that response, “Sandeep, you put in a nice letter saying you wanted to be a dispensary”. Texas, grant me a license, and they're like, “Sandeep passes a test. He looks like a good guy. Let's give him a license and award him the license.” So what you'll do, so go get your retail spot, go build it out, work on your SOPs work on your team. But also what you're going to need is to have a tech stack to enable you to do business. And once you start thinking about your tech stack, you'll go to your trusty Google or your consultant and ask, “I need a point of sale. I need a loyalty program. I'm in the ECOM, what is my tech stack looking like it should be as a dispensary operator?” So you'll go on, and you'll look for different sorts of solutions. And that's where we come into play is that first step, because it's a centralized flat rate, there's the point of sale. And like I said, we'll tell Uncle Sam, all the compliance data. Again, you can't use a toast or a traditional point of sale because there's a lot of tech compliance aspects to the cannabis space that you need to be able to stay in compliance and ultimately keep your license that you worked hard to get. So we'll go in and it's a sales lead channel, it's hard enough and complex enough to where you can't just spin it up yourself, we have to work on the product catalog, we have to work on all the skews you have, we got to implement and customize your instance of our platform so you can leverage it to the best abilities. So we'll use ourSDRs and BDRs to do outbound looking at people that are winning licenses, and getting that conversation early, or trying to approve some of the established players that might be shopping around for the point of sale. So an SDR will have those conversations do the discovery. And actually, this is one of the most fun things is, is when SDRs and BDRs and AEs are having this conversationSandeep, one minute you're talking to not what someone like you, but maybe a legacy operator. Just said, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this the right way. Let's go get a license, and they get their license, and they're shopping around for software. And they're like, “Why do I need software?” I've run a cash based business for the last 10 years, there's no ROI on this. I'm just doing this to check a box. So you need to be able to understand that conversation and what they care about, and how you can tailor your pitch to that type of person. And then maybe the next guy has the same exact title. But he's been the VP of Operations for Sears and entered into the cannabis space and he knows more about ERP than you do. So all of a sudden you have to understand theKPIs that he cares about, you need to be able to speak his language, and ultimately be able to win him over too. Again, your titles might be the same. But your conversations and tactics are going to change. And your discovery has to be really on point. So you can be able to use the tone in the language that you're for the type of person that you're talking to. So that's been the most challenging, or the most entertaining, fun part about being on the front lines of a sales team.Because once it gets to the implementation team, they've already given you that information, and be able to tease that out. But how you engage with that conversation is definitely something you have to understand.
This seems very interesting. And also you have subscriptions that you sell, is that like one subscription? Like, tell us the complexity of your product catalog to your insurance?
So our product catalog is pretty expensive. We don't work with just dispensaries. We work with cultivators, with processors and dispensaries. And on top of that, we have some unique packages, light and a premium version. We got some bolt on products as well. So it's about 10 to 15skews and our product catalog that we leverage quite frequently.
And has this subscription, do you have any usage based billing or is it allsubscriptions?
It's all subscription based. We were toying around with pivoting to a volume-based pricing with what we're moving it but we've stayed at kind of this just flat line subscription for the time being with an implementation fee.
Got it. And what's your Quote-to-Cash system look like?
So our stack has been marketing uses HubSpot for all the emails engagement. And then as leads pass by they go into Salesforce, which then an account executive works. And then we used Zuora for the quoting and then the billing side of things.
Understood. And can you talk about the biggest challenges in the Quote-to-Cash base as you try to put this on with different entities as you said B2G, which is the term that I've heard for the first time but it kind of makes sense business to government. You talked about working with cultivators, processors and operators.
So you've already highlighted the complexity of our business requirements, Sandeep. We have amendments, and we have our standard subscription packages as well. And of course, we have our negotiation tactics and how to use. So we have, on the quoting side, quite a few challenges with Salesforce and Zuora. So I don't know if any of the listeners out here have used Zuora quotes, but it's pretty awful in my opinion. We've had a lot of challenges, our reps, usually, on average, created three to four quotes before they were ready to show one to their customers. So then flexibility, the problems that we have are mainly around that, and just getting the right data to show up on even a quote was just astronomically hard. And you do need basically a full time architect to be able to ensure that Salesforce, Zuora and everything's talking together really, really nicely. And we're a lean mean team, and to be able to do that effectively and efficiently is really challenging for us.
Understood. And do you think the complexity is because of the tool or because of the process or a combination of both?
I would say mostly the tool. To me, I don't think we're a unique special butterfly in this situation or snowflake, because a lot of B2B players do the same thing. They generate quotes, they do negotiation tactics, they have a product catalog that maybe they need to tweak every now and then for the customers to get this deal across. I can't imagine that we're the only ones with these business challenges.
Understood. And how about the quote presentment, or amendments? Was this simpler or was this equally hard for you and your team?
Basically, this was really big challenge for us of when we did amendments or generating quotes, because the table was very confusing to the end consumer. Some of the totals wouldn't match. How the percentages of discounts was showing there. Like I said, we generated three to four on average, just to try to get to the right view of the customer so that they can understand what we were even giving them. Even then sometimes we'd have to export to Word, make the adjustments, and then go back to PDF, and then start the conversation again, and then on the back, because it's time sensitive, and then go back and figure it out later.
Got it. So connecting to this starting, you're starting a new startup venture. If you had to do this again and publish your Quote-to-Cash again, what would you do differently?
I would not use the Zuora quotes. Right now, I deployed HubSpot as our CRM because I'm a smaller entity and our sales cycle for this one is a bit lengthier. So the volume that we had in my last company is a little bit nuanced and different. A longer sales cycle, the volume quite isn't high. Again, like you said, it's our own venture. So we got to get traction to start with the beginning.So I would look for an easy, flexible quoting tool that can be able to then move into the billing and subscription size, because we do have a SAS play. We do have monthly subscriptions. This one's a bit more standard than my previous company. But just something that's really easy because I'm anAI nerd. I love efficiencies. I think time is the most valuable thing we have on this earth. So I want to be able to like I said, as a small startup be able to leverage my time talking to prospects and doing business development, rather than focusing on changing quotes, and being able to fiddle with a tech stack that ultimately doesn't meet my needs.
Understood. One of the big priorities for you as you look at your stack and business processes, any plans for you for the next few quarters?
Well, we're having this conversation today and our paths cross. You look for a partner, you look for someone that's going to be there for you and understand and be a partner through this whole journey and be able to support you. So that's always a big thing for me and the budgets gotta be right. And the products gotta be my business requirements. So for my new venture, I need a customized quote with a one-time fee, and then basically a year contract worth of subscription billing that I will then have to invoice. So I need in it, this one's not as crazy of a product catalog. So it needs to be simple, effective, a good partner, good support, and be able to invoice correctly and meet my needs there.
Understood. I think you said it well. It's simple, but I think I'll just say it again. Product that meets your business requirements. Somebody that works with you at a partner level, not as a customer vendor relationship. And the third thing you said was again very simple, but I think it's very powerful, time is the most valuable asset that we all have. And that helps us save time, and focus on what we want to do in our professional lives, our personal lives. I think, just keep an eye out on that. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
100%.
We talked about a few things that did not work for you on the tooling side. But if there are any vendors or builders of these products, listening to the podcast, would you have any recommendation or for them based on your firsthand use of these tools, like things that they should be thinking about solving for you today, maybe for tomorrow, like some crazy scientist ideas, anything you want to share?
So my last two months has not been really focusing on this side of the space. But I've been really thinking about marketing and sales channels and tactics and leveraging the AI and automation tools that are coming out. I saw even one it was like, I think C3.ai had a very cool like revenue intelligence AI product that they were coming out with Jasper Tap Leo, all these sort of AI realms that I've been tinkering with. I think could be very leveraged and very well to any company, whether they're a startup, middle or enterprise, because the efficiencies that are going to rapidly come out this year, can be leveraged by all of us, no matter where you're utilizing that in the tech-stack. For me, it's all about blogs, and marketing, contact and social posts and cold outreach emails and all of those utilization. They're having the same sort of products coming out every day, they can be leveraged forever at the end of the day, and being able to catch those things and layer on so they can utilize those efficiencies that need to depending on where you're having challenges at.
Makes a ton of sense, Ian. There's also one thing I want to get your perspective on, is because you've used quote, but there's also the billing side subscription side of it, is this new architecture, coding and billing being together? Any thoughts on that separating these versus having them in one platform?
Sure. I don't have a serious opinion. If they both do it really well, if you can solve both of those, and be the same brand, then it makes total sense. If you can do that, and have it in one tech-stack, that ultimately to me makes it a lot easier, because I have one vendor solving both problems for me, and they're doing it the right way that I need for it to be done. So if I can trust you and monetize now to deliver both of those, which we have, then I don't see why you wouldn't look for that for one service, one stop shop if they're solving it correctly. Again, if you miss the mark on one or two of them, and you do one really well and then a product does the other really well and they have a really good integration then it makes sense. But if you have bumps in the road, or maybe you get some references and they have challenges, that's a big turn off for me.
Well said, thank you for that. It was actually a very crisp and to the point conversation. I like your direct and very storytelling style of the things. But before we let you go, is there any interesting resource that you want to recommend to our listeners, maybe a blog, podcast, something that created an impression on you and most importantly, why?
Sure. I guess back in the day I read “The 4-Hour Workweek” that really changed my perspective from Tim Ferriss. It’s been a longtime Tim Ferriss fan. I love his efficiency and histactics, operations podcast is a great resource operations with Sean Lane and the drift crew are really really fun to listen to. I'm a nerd for a good business podcast and a good business book. So I would just gobble up all the information because then you can pick out tweaks that you can leverage and experiment with and ultimately deploy on your own in your own business. So I'm a self-help business book lover at the end of the day.
Awesome. Thank you so much again for your time, and it was great speaking with you.
Likewise, thanks, Sandeep. Have a great rest of your day.
