Hi. Welcome to the 16th episode of “The Enterprise Monetization” podcast. And this is your host, Sandeep Jain. In this podcast, we invite thought leaders from enterprise monetization space that CPQ, billing, usage, so that you can learn about challenges, opportunities, and best practices in B2B enterprise monetization. Today, I'm super excited to invite somebody who I've worked with for now five, six months. His name is Zach Weinstein. Zach has deep expertise in the field of revenue operations. Currently, Zach leads revenue operations at Middesk. If you don't know what Middesk does, we'll have Zach, tell us more about that in a second. Prior to that, Zach did business operations at played. And before that Zach was doing Management Consulting at Oliver Wyman. We'll get to know from, Zach, how did he make this transition in a second? But it's a pleasure to invite you to this podcast, Zach. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Sandeep. I'm excited to be here.
Awesome. So let's jump into this. Can you just provide our listeners a quick summary of your background? Like how you decided to go from management consulting to revenue operations? Honestly, I've never heard that. So I'm curious to know why you decided or how you decided to make the jump?
Originally born and raised in Toronto, and as Sandeep mentioned, was a consultant at Oliver Wyman, where I worked in Canada, US and Mexico, focused primarily on transportation and financial services clients, I was looking to join a fast growing company, in an exciting space, learn tons, increase ownership. And I really found that in the business operations team at Plaid. “Plaid is the financial infrastructure company powered many of the Fintech apps that we are also used to using today.” And within that business operations team, I focused on go to market, we call the go to market ops, or we didn't even explicitly call it revenue operations at the time. So I focused on top of funnel, which we thought of as marketing, partnerships and our sales development function. I thought of my KPI as maximizing pipeline in dollars and in count, when you can think of the overall goal of revenue operations I would say, is to maximize revenue, maximize bookings, maximize pipeline, all those things together. And I was leading a piece of that applied. After an amazing experience applied, I was there from 300 employees to 1000, through the fast growth through the crazy COVID times, I was looking to build a go to market operations, go to market ops function from the ground up. And I was lucky enough to find the great team at Middesk to do that, where I joined in 2021 to build out go to market ops.
Awesome. So let me ask you this thing. What is the difference between go to market ops and DevOps and sales ops from your perspective?
Yes, for sure. I think there's a lot of terms thrown around here. So sales ops started first where you had sales leaders who were amazing sellers, amazing people, managers who were looking for folks on our team to be more analytically minded, and help them run the analytics, the ops side of their business, then that transition kept growing over time, you had SAS businesses, where there was sales and customer success, sales and account management. And this term revenue operations started coming up. And in some cases that included marketing, and some cases it didn't. And it's been pretty fuzzy. But I advocate for this new term, I've made up here, called go to market ops, which I think of as holistically, you can think of a table here. So your columns could be marketing, sales, account management, and partnerships. And then horizontal to those columns is strategy. What should our goals be? What verticals do we go after? Second, “Pricing and deal desk.” What's our pricing model? What's our price approval levels? What's our deal by deal strategy for our largest deals? Third, “Analytics”, like how do we understand our performance, everything from headline metrics, like what we're booking, all the way to details, such as conversion metrics by channel. Fourth, “Ops in process.” So for example, how work together to create opportunities. And finally “Systems and tools”, those five horizontals against the four vertical areas within go to market is how I think about go to market ops as a whole.
Zach you are a true management consultant. Because I didn't send you this question in our pre questionnaire prep, and you're like, boom, boom. So it's just interesting to hear your structured parts on this topic.
I didn't structure it into three bullets.
There's inflation happening everywhere. So we'll go through. Cool. Actually, I should have started with this. Can you actually share a fun fact about yourself?
Yes, of course. This is usually my fun fact. So I'm an avid skier. I grew up skiing on a 700 foothill, so the only thing to do was go as fast as possible, because that was the fun thing to do on the East Coast. And then moving west. I've been on the West Coast now for six years, got into more and more off piste, or backcountry style skiing, and went heli skiing for the first time last year, which was quite an amazing experience. You're at the middle of nowhere, there's no cell service, which is a very good thing. And you're just there with the snow in a small group of fantastic skiers.
That must be an amazing experience to feel it. Just doing that thing. I've never done that before. I'm not even a skier. But this sounds really exciting by the way. Can you tell us a little bit more about “Middesk”? What Middesk does?
Yes, of course. So “Middesk” enables businesses to access any product or service to enable them to grow. And it's always hard to think of these b2b companies and what they're really doing. So I always try to use a consumer analogy. As consumers, we're used to onboarding to products like Robin Hood, they require our identity to be verified, they require a link of a bank account and that all happens easily, quickly, instantly, and you can be trading in five minutes. Businesses don't have that luxury. Middesk is the infrastructure to enable businesses to access services from b2b players, in a way that mirrors the consumer experience.
Understood. So like a business verification or business information is what you guys are providing through API's, I guess.
Yes, exactly. So our customers include Fintech’s, such as Plaid, blue vine, and Shopify. Plus, several large banks and lenders, we are backed by Sequoia, Excel, insight and canopy.
Well, that's quite a few good names out there, both in customers and investors. Cool. Let's jump into your specific role there Zach, like what's your specific role? How's your team structured? The copies that have new Epstein, and so on, so forth?
Yes, for sure. So revenue operations at “Middesk” is me plus one. And we're both focused, I think of it as a full stack. So I mentioned those five different horizontals, before strategy, pricing, analytics, operations and systems. And I think of organizing a go to market ops team, as across all of those four different parts of the business. So I focus on top of funnel, and my colleague focuses on bottom of funnel, so I'm doing marketing and partnerships, my colleague is doing sales and account management. This allows for alignment of me and my colleague to choose different leaders across the business, as well as two objectives. So again, similarly to my experience applied focus primarily on pipeline creation, whereas my colleague is focused more on bookings. And then, of course, there's no perfect line between. But this provides the right structure to maximize impact.
Got it. So before we go into your quote, to cash stack, can you just describe your business model? Like how many skews? What kind of business model you have? Is it like subscriptions, usage? Where do you sell? Is it a reseller lead? Actually, it's a sales lead, or resellers or self-serve, just so that we understand, what's the scope of what you're dealing with?
Yes, of course. So I fundamentally believe that we're only successful if our customers are successful, which is why I love usage based pricing and usage based models so much. So we employ a model that is primarily usage based with a minimum commits, and platform fees. To compensate for the use of awesome platform features we have, I'm happy to talk through that if that's of interest. And then the minimum commit shows that allows us to invest more in our customers and our relationship with them. And in exchange for lower unit rates that they receive to access our usage based products. We have about 20 usage based products across our three lines of business, which is verifications, underwriting and tax.
And how many channels do you sell through today?
So we primarily sell with a sales lead model. We do also get a number of referrals from a few great partners, but we're lucky enough to have, we have a reseller channel as well for integrated experiences. So for example, within a banking as a service, a bass company, mid serving b2bcustomers, Middesk is a piece of that experience. And that would be an example of an integrated resale.
And can you share, how many reps you have like selling?
Zach: So we've worked 15 folks across sales, development, sales, account management and partnerships that are customer and prospect facing in various stages of a sales cycle.
I want to actually double click on your usage based billing because it's a topic that people of course talk about, some experiment with it but looks like you guys, relative to your journey as a startup, you guys fully embraced it. So for people who are listening on this podcast and are thinking well, what pieces of knowledge we can understand from these things like minimum commit. And there's other things called like prepaid credits. So can you just talk about, if somebody wants to do usage billing for their businesses, or their business? How should they go about thinking operationalizing that?
That's a great question. So coming back to the philosophy, we want to reward the right behavior, or if you will, and we want to have a strong relationship, a growing relationship with our customers. So some companies get this wrong in some interesting ways, they will lean very heavily on commitments in terms of purchasing a block of usage, or there might be three levels of the products that come with a certain amount of usage. And if you exceed that, they shut you off. This is very strange behavior in my mind, because we're deciding that you're growing as a company, we want our customers to grow yet we're going to penalize you. Another example would be charging more for usage in excess of a commitment. You'll notice I didn't even use the word overage, I hate the word overage. Overage means success means our customers are using a product. They're loving the product, usage in excess of commitment is, our customers are going to pay for it. But that's the cheapest unit. We want at scale, each unit to be the cheapest. That's the strongest relationship customer we have and want to extend that commitment to them.
No, it does. I didn't think of overages as that. But that's an interesting point. But tell me about this thing of if I'm doing a minimum commit, is this minimum commit across like you said you have totally usage products. So as a customer, am I paying that minimum commit across all these products? Or is it like one by one? Do you take that commit at the beginning of the month? Do you take it at the end of the month? Is that end of the quarter? Like can you give a little bit more structure around that?
So I'll try to answer those two pieces. So one is across the different products. And the second one is around timing. So my view here is that you want to make customer friendly, reasonable decisions here. If you get to the end of the billing period, and you chose a model where you had a minimum commit per product, and a customer exceeds the minimum commit on one, buy a lot, but undershoots on another, the customer will inevitably ask you, so you're going to charge me overage because I went over well, I went under on one and over on the other. That doesn't make sense, because that's not treating us as a whole relationship. So we just need to embrace that. My view is a minimum commit applies across all of your usage products to treat customers as a whole, not as a buyer of ‘Product A’ or ‘Product B’.
It's a very interesting way of looking at that. I'm loving this. So tell me about the second one.
So in terms of timing of billing, today, we always have room for improvements. We are billing our minimum commits and our usage in arrears. This creates a simpler billing environment where whenever we send a bill, that bill contains one months of usage, therefore, one month of Rev rec in that single invoice, in the future, we'll likely move to a model where we build the minimum commit in advance. And then at the end of the month, we'll Bill usage in excess of that minimum commit in arrears. In addition to the following months min commit, this creates, obviously a better cash flow situation, especially in the current high interest rate environment, plus de risks trust, we would prefer to be in a situation with cash in hand, while the customer is using our product, rather than the reverse, where we're billing them for prior months usage, and they're already using next month, and they may not have paid their bill yet.
That's a great point again, Zach. Let's dive into your quote to cash stack, like what do you use for CRM, coding, billing and usage? Like what's your infrastructure?
So for CRM, we're using Salesforce for quoting, we're using monetize. Now, we've been a partner of Sandeep here for about six months now. On the billing and invoicing side, we're using Stripe and on the usage side, we do this in house. So we do those calculations in our product before sending the information to stripe, to execute the billing.
Can talk about your biggest challenges that you've seen in your quote to cash stack. And also, if you're doing it afresh for a new company, would you think differently in setting the stack and we will go to that later on. But let's talk about your current challenges.
So when I was at Plaid, I joined late enough that a CPQ was already in place. And I saw how valuable that was in anything we wanted to do, in changing our pricing model, in understanding our unit rates to do pricing analysis. To understand discounting we should give, to understand the document that was truly signed, is the one that was quoted. So we could automate our variable compensation for our account executives, for example. So I knew that I had to get a CPQ in place early now that we've had that in place for six months, we've solved many of the typical early company pitfalls, for example, products on order forms that we couldn't sell. This happens when there's an order form and AES typing something in, they have no bad faith, but they're typing something in that they think is sellable. Someone told them a sellable, it was in some dark, it used to be sellable, but may not be today. Second pricing models on order forms that we can't support. Third, extreme discounts. This is obvious, we should always understand the discounts we're giving. It doesn't mean that we should never discount heavily, but we should understand what decisions are being made. And finally, manual error by accounting and finance teams typing in rates. So when they're typing in rates from a flat signed file, you end up in a situation where it's easy to make a mistake, it's easy to move a decimal point, again, isn't anyone's fault. This is a manual process that you can solve by getting a CPQ in place, even if you don't yet have an automated connection between CPQ and billing.
So Zach, that's interesting. But one of the questions that I hear from most people is, when should I transition from manual quoting to a CPQ? Is it the number of reps? Is it a number of skews? Is it the fact whether your consumption based billing, what's the part there?
That's a great question. And I wish there was a perfect rule of once you hit this criteria you transition. But this is one of those where every company is a little bit different. There are four factors I keep in mind. So the more reps you have, even crossing four or five reps, your knowledge doesn't transfer as well between one person and another, you're onboarding folks quickly. And you'll want to have standardization in place to make them more efficient moving quicker. Second, “The more complicated your pricing model is, which really means usage, to be honest, the harder it is to quote that well to have price discounting controls against it, if all you’re running is a seed based model, it's kind of usage-ish, but you have a low number of units.” But if you're selling an API based product, and you have 1000s, 10,000, 100,000s units, getting your pricing and quoting rate is even more important early. Third is “How mature and variable your pricing model is, if you're changing your pricing model, every week, you're going from usage to block to upfront, you're not ready for a CPQ yet.” And finally, “The data quality expectations by yourleadership team and your VCs, your investors, the higher this is, the more important it is to get tooling in place and get out of documents.” Documents will only scale when to the point of how fast you can open them and look at them with your eyes. They're never going to adapt perfectly into a structured data.
Interesting, thanks for that, Zach. Also related point, what do you think or do you have any thoughts about having a CPQ system and a billing system that are different or from different vendors? Do you see any challenges with that? Do you have any thoughts on them being together? Any thoughts on that?
Yes, I do. I've been thinking more about this recently, and talking to colleagues and other companies. And what I increasingly find is, even when folks say that they are integrated, they have their quoting and billing integrated. They really mean at the slightest level, it's integrated. So as an example, what's the most important thing coming out of coding and billing? It's your bills, it's your invoices, it's your cash collection. And that's what they've solved for, for the set of products they're selling at that point. But there's still two major pitfalls. One is “A single source of truth on your contracts.” This sounds silly. But companies have trouble answering questions like how many customers do we have? When should we proactively reach out about a renewal? What is the end contract behavior? Is that a renewal automatically or does it cancel? And the second pitfall is enabling a stronger GTM motion based on the information. So if you have an integrated quoting and cash, quoting billing Cash System, you know, when usage is down, and you know, when usage is up, if usage is down, it could indicate churning contraction risks, maybe you want your account manager to pay more attention then, if usage is up, maybe that's an opportunity to upgrade a customer to another plan, or for using a new product they hadn't used before.
Anything about the discrepancy in the product catalog between the different systems? Because that's one of the things we have heard. It takes a lot of data wrangling or hiring professional services team to connect them, has that been your experience or what are your thoughts about that?
That's also a great question. I think the challenge with the product catalog is you can get whatever data wrangling and professional services, you want to connect those. But ultimately, if there are two systems that you have to press a new product in both of them and define how you're pricing them, how you're billing them, you're bound to have discrepancies. By having one catalog with one set of pricing structures against those, you're guaranteed to have anything that is on a close, that is in a contract, is available. So you can solve for this by having slow iteration on your pricing, you have a fixed set of products, you have one pricing model, but as soon as you want iteration there, this problem becomes unwieldy very quickly.
Thanks for that perspective, changing gears a little bit. What are the top priorities for you and your colleague in the next few quarters? What do you want to do?
I'll focus on a couple of priorities I have related to quote to cash and how to better use that information. I think that's probably most applicable to the audience of your podcast here. One is “Around automating approvals”. So this hasn't been a massive theme for us, because we have the bigger items solved for, we have the products defined, which is an approval already, we have the pricing structures defined, these are forced approvals, or validations that take place, because we have a quoting system in place. But there are additional approvals related to unit rates, related to having an address of all of your contacts, on your order form, things like that, that we want to get in place to make it experience our AES even faster. “Related to that, we're automating our document creation and signature process from our CPQ system to save our AEs time, and improve the data quality that we get”. And then third, I mentioned this to one of the prior questions using our usage billing data better. So today, we use it in some capacity to proactively alert on turn, to alert on usage going up and going down, but one that we're looking forward to is being able to predict revenue on a per customer basis, which sounds really simple, if you're on a pure usage based model. But if you have different types of usage products, for example, each time a product is called, that counts as one unit, you could have a product where only the first time it's called that counts as a unit. And each retrieval is free, or is at a discounted rate. You could have at hird type of product, which is subscription, by usage, meaning that you subscribe to a monitoring type service. And then until you unsubscribe, you're billed monthly for that subscription against an individual in our case of business you're monitoring. Using all of that information with them in commit to estimate what the revenue will be at the end of the month, is a really exciting opportunity for us to provide even more visibility to our entire team without waiting for end of month, plus a few days to close the books.
I love this last bit that you mentioned, it's very insightful, because it gives information on the pulse of your business. And that's a very interesting way to look at this. I love it. Zach, any advice or recommendation to the vendors in this space? Product managers who are listening on the call or engineers? How should they design things, systems differently, coming from your world as an operator?
So as I was looking at CPQ options for us, I mentioned earlier that I knew we needed to get something in place early to have the data quality that we have right now. I wanted to balance a few things. One is “Time to impact or time for us to launch”. Second, “The overhead both in terms of cost and time to manage at steady state.” Third was “Full features”. So what's the set of pricing models that can be accommodated, and fourth is “Our ability to iterate quickly.” Which is like saying buying for the long term, that's the theme of all of these, if we had high overhead, if we couldn't change our pricing model. If we couldn't change it quickly. I would not view that as a good long term decision. So those are the factors we looked at. And the other I'd call like user experience as a whole. And this is a trend that I'd say in B2B products. We increasingly expect that this is actually part of what Middesk offers our clients. We increasingly expect consumer level experiences from B2B products. Before when you used to pick up a B2B product. There were hours of training and their certifications and there's videos you watch. But that's not how we expect a consumer product to work. You pick up your iPhone and it just works. You know how it works, you drag on the screen. You don't need to watch a video about that. So the more that we vendors can build products that feel like that. The wording makes sense. There's in products guidance. There's no instructional videos, the better and more adoptable the product will be very quickly.
Awesome. This has been some interesting insights that you gave us, thank you fort hat. But before we let you go, is there any recommendation of a resource like a book or a blog or maybe a podcast that you heard that you would like to share with our listeners today?
Beyond this podcast, there's one article that I've reread probably every six months or so, called “Management Time”, who's got the monkey, it's this HBR article. It's about how it's easy to take on something because someone's asked you a question, asked you to look into something. And I think in terms of driving accountability in organizations, it's really important to think through, who has the responsibility for the next steps or pushing something forward, ultimate ownership of the thing. So you may be helping your colleagues, your colleagues may be helping you on something, you may be together helping a third party, but it's important to know who has the responsibility, or who's got the monkey in the context of this. So the monkey on your back, I think is how this article frames it. And to not accidentally adopt the monkey by saying, I'll look into that. And then everything stops while you're doing something. So I think this really resonated a lot with me, the idea that you got to be really clear about who has the ownership, who has the next steps, even if there's a piece being done by someone else.
I love this, does it tell you how to get the monkey off your back? Like does it provide some tips on reversing this? Jokes aside, this happens in organizations a lot, like you just pass some random work to your colleagues, just because, I find it frustrating sometimes. And it actually happened this morning with me, I was working with a vendor. And they're like, Sandeep, do this for us. And I was like, hang on, there is another way to look at this. And they agreed with that. So the monkey was coming on my back. And I was like, my god, this is work on my plate. And then I reverted back to them. And they agreed, actually. So it's very interesting that you talk about this, because there's a lot of random work being passed around. So does this article talk about who's got the monkey? Just give some tips on that?
Yes, I think it has “Two buckets of strategies”. One is how to never adopt the monkey, the strategy is around once you have the monkey that you should not have accidentally adopted, how tore readopt out the monkey. I'm probably using the word adopt here too much. Yes, I'll leave this for your listeners to check out after but, yes, I think there's some good strategies in the article.
I just love this. I'm actually going to share it with my team here at monetize now because I think this is such a critical topic. So thank you for sharing this. This is amazing. Zach once again, thank you for your time today. Loved having you on the show.
Awesome. Thank you, Sandeep. I really appreciate it.
Sandeep Jain: Hi. Welcome to the 8th episode of “The Enterprise Monetization” podcast. And this is your host, Sandeep Jain. In this podcast, we invite thought leaders from monetization space that has CPQ and billing, so that you can learn about challenges, opportunities, and best practices in enterprise monetization. Today, I'm pleased to invite Navin Persaud. To this podcast, Navin has a deep expertise in running sales and marketing ops. He's currently the Head of Revenue Ops at a company called 1Password. I'm pretty sure all of you would know what that company is for. But for those of you who don't know, 1Password is a private company based out of Toronto, Canada, and they do password management for both businesses and for personal use. So they are like a Product-Led Growth company, if you're familiar with the term Product-Led Growth. Prior to that, Navin managed operations at several companies such as Fixed Software, Ceridian, Leader, Lenovo and IBM Canada. With that, I want to extend a very warm welcome to Navin. Navin, welcome to the show.
Navin Persaud: Thanks, Sandeep. Happy to be here.
Sandeep Jain: Awesome. So, before we start, can you share a quick fun fact about yourself that you'd like to share with the audience of this podcast?
Navin Persaud: Sure, sure thing. I think people who know me know I love to fish fishing. I'm not exactly a great fisherman, but I love the analogies that that fishing offers me in my work life to my personal life. And really that persistence, the amount of effort preparedness, these are all things that work in both elements, whether, you're fishing or whether you're that sales rep trying to close that up order.
Sandeep Jain: It's interesting. I don't fish but I could never call it that analogy. Well, we've all seen the fisherman just sitting and just waiting for the hook to be engaged. I don't know, what's the right phrase there? But I can imagine the patience and the diligence required to get this thing done, it's very interesting. Do you fish often, by the way?
Navin Persaud: Anytime I can get.
Sandeep Jain: Wow. Okay. So I'm assuming you're close to a place which allows you to do what you want to do?
Navin Persaud: Proximity water doesn't stop me. If I have time, I'll go find it
Sandeep Jain: How much is this, if you don't mind me asking this, the paying for this activity is like a few hours like what's the time commitment?
Navin Persaud: Yeah, usually, you have to know that you're gonna go a day before because then you have to pack the vehicle and make sure you have all your gear, have bade know that you're waking up early the next morning, and then you go.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. And once again, my goodness, but is it kind of a solo sport, or is it?
Navin Persaud: It's either, but like, the great joy for me is taking my son. So my son is 18. And he loves fishing as much as I do. And sometimes he's pulling me to go fish when? No, I'm not thinking about it. So it's actually really great.
Sandeep Jain: That's interesting. That's interesting. My son is eight years old, probably, that's a good dad and son bonding exercise, I guess. So thank you for sharing this, by the way. Let's come to some other fun stuff that we want to talk about today, which is monetization. So I give a quick summary to our audience. But Julie, just quickly share about your professional journey. You know, it seems that you started in marketing, sales, and then you're now into revenue operations, which is sort of an over encompassing thing?
Navin Persaud: Sure. I started my career as an IBM 15years, right at a university, I thought I was going to be a lawyer at IBM. Opportunity at IBM was amazing, as you know, entering the workforce, starting off as you know, an operations moving into sales roles, finding a home operations, and then eventually moving into SaaS organizations Rev Ops 2015. And then learning SaaS from there on in having never experienced Salesforce, didn't really know what SaaS was never sold software, moving from like a commodity based business to software and, you know, looking back, I wish I had done it sooner.
Sandeep Jain: Go ahead and dial up one password. Can you talk more about the company and your role at 1Password?
Navin Persaud: Sure. I've been to 1Password for just over six months now. It's been an amazing journey, their Product-Led Growth Company, they serve as both individuals so like a B2C model, and companies as a B2B model. They're on an incredible growth curve at the moment. Product-Led, and my role here as leader of Rev Ops is to really just look at the internal processes and systems and sort of help the team remove obstacles, to just keep that efficiency rolling out, it's been a great journey. I've enjoyed the ride. And I look forward to more projects and initiatives that we're about to embark on here shortly.
Sandeep Jain: Understood. And could you talk more about, like how your role is structured within is apart of the sales organization? Because revenue operations crosses the multiple boundaries of multiple functions. So that's why I'm curious about how it is organized at your company.
Navin Persaud: Yes, for sure. So I reported to our CRO, so we're part of the go to market organization, which is effectively sales, and that's typically what I've seen in my career. I think, once I've reached this particular level, I've always reported into either CRO or CMO. But generally in sales, because that's where the pain is felt. That's where they need someone to help them with the systems, and the process, and the reporting and the data. So it's a natural fit, and a natural home sales affords you the opportunity to be on the same team on the same page, so that you're working with each other as opposed to against each other, which is always great. In order to get things done, get buy in, and to generally just move initiatives forward.
Sandeep Jain: Understood, and what companies have a separate revenue operations function, do they also have a Sales Ops as a function or is it kind of merged with the Revenue Ops?
Navin Persaud: I think Rev Ops is a new creature in the last few years, it's a buzzword. I think sales ops was more of a legacy term that companies are sort of just shifting away from. In the past, I've seen sales ops, I've been a sales ops leader, and it's really about, you have an MQL, you've created a customer, you have an MQL, you've created a customer like that was the journey. And your role was to operate within that. Whereas Rev Ops is a lot more encompassing is you have an MQL, you have a customer, then you have an upsell, you have a renewal, you have a churn, you start all over again, you have expansion. It's more of a full cycle. And it marries well into organizations where you have a CRO, who owns not only the new customer sales teams, but also the customer success and expansion teams as well. So it's a nice little wrapper.
Sandeep Jain: Awesome. I think you explained this very well. And I mean, I've talked to quite a few people on that, but I think explanation hits the mark. So thank you for sharing that. And so look, we talked about a Product-Led Growth scenario. So can you talk about the challenges in this journey that you talked about, from a view point of a Product-Led Growth company?
Navin Persaud: Yeah. So first of all, it's great to be working in a Product-Led Growth company. Because here you have great virality in your product, great demand. And really what you're coming in, at least from my perspective, to fix are effectively the plumbing of all the systems and the billing and the process and the lead flow sand how all of that works in behind the scenes. And your hope is you're just trying to fix things and those processes to get out of the way of a product. So that the velocity people can you can acquire new customers that can move through your sales teams, and then into your customer success teams at great speed. Whereas the inverse is if you're not working in a Product-Led Growth company, you're really trying to fix those things to help drive velocity where it doesn't already exist, and that's where it's really challenging. In terms of challenges, I would say, having the ability for customers to self-serve is paramount. Lot of Product-Led Growth companies has the ability to acquire customers. So they would have like an Ecommerce solution where customers can sign up for a trial and then buy on their own. But not a lot of them have the ability for customers to move to different forms of payment. They have to get to a human in those instances. And that's where these bottlenecks start to appear and surface. And if not built and sort of planned appropriately. You run into scaling resourcing issues, because then all of a sudden, this, this big wave of customers who potentially needs to be upgraded or pay in a different way, needs a human to do it. And therefore you need more humans to kind of meet that demand.
Sandeep Jain: So let's just focus on that. So this is the B2C workflow that you're talking about. And is there like the tools existing tools don't have that. They don't have an answer to that workflow that you're looking for. And you have to build these experiences yourself, or the experience is not great from the like, what's the problem there?
Navin Persaud: Well, this is actually B2B as well. But I find that a lot of Product-Led Growth companies, their product, and the way in which they bill is something that is inherent and built within their product from the get go. And over time, they extend the reach of the product to service billing and integrate with other systems. Sometimes it's not ideal, like it's not the best way or not really what the intentions of the product were solely there to solve for. And then you reach that period of limitation where it's either you, you scale back what the product is, and you buy something that just doesn't well in the market to solve for those pains, you just have to reach a certain amount of growth where you have to make that decision. And in the meantime, you have to make things work with the product you haven’t place, and the structure and a process that's already built into your platform, to scale allow for growth, and give that flexibility and upgrade paths etc.
Sandeep Jain: Understood. And with respect to this particular like there are two workflows from B2C and B2B.And the tool that comes there is the CPQ, which is workhouses, the product catalogue, do you see any challenges there having a CPQ service these different channels, where your customers are coming from?
Navin Persaud: WithB2C, it's pretty simple. Like you try the product, you like it, you put down a credit card, you pick your tear away, you go, it's really not, from what I've seen, the CPQ use case there, where CPQ is most prevalent is on the B2B side, specifically, where you have a customer putting their hand up saying, you know, I hate pricing. CPQ is really your subscription engine, your ability to understand what the customer needs price of that quote, and then turn it into a customer with a subscription and a contract to be able to amend upsell down, sell churn renew over time. And it's really the management of that engine across 1000s of customers that makes it complex, if not done quickly. And in an efficient way, I've seen significant challenges with companies where they've waited. And then they decided, yeah, you know what, we need to go do this, and the work is just a lot longer, a lot longer. So because CPQ, and the systems I've dealt with are complex, it's that you have to translate or almost rinse everything that what was built into the CPQ framework, so that it can spit out what you need for it to go forward. And that's where all the challenge lies.
Sandeep Jain: Understood. And then you'll experience Navin, for product like good companies, even for the customers coming from B2B. Is there a requirement for a self-serve CPQ that I don't want to put my credit card, but I'm gonna do a deal of several $1,000 or10s of 1000s of dollars. But I'd still want to talk to a salesperson, is that a valid scenario that companies should think about?
Navin Persaud: Absolutely. For the point that I raised earlier, if you're aren't building a fly wheel within yourself serve engine, your website's always on, and the ability flexibility for customers to buy what they need, without necessarily always having to talk to a human to get it done. You're hurting yourself, because then you're really relying on your ability to scale on the people that you have to service that demand in a timely fashion with the right price points, and all the other administrative actions that follow it. Companies who are Product-Led Growth and build that flexibility in from the start before them the ability to ramp sales teams over time to be extremely targeted, focused on a specific cohort of customers, whether it be in your enterprise or specific industries, or specific product types, etc. that’s really powerful. But if you're really requiring on the humans to service your demand, because you have a limitation of what someone can buy on their own, then you're sort of at the bit at the mercy of the people that you can hire and putting see.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. And so one side of the CPQ may have been but the other side is a billing for that. Do you see any challenges with billing for both your B2C and B2Bcustomers?
Navin Persaud: Yeah, from personal experience, B2C is a new thing for me, so I won't go into that. I see. That's pretty straightforward. A lot of vendors out there I think Stripe was one of the most predominant ones. From a B2B standpoint, yes, because even if whatever CPQ you decide to choose and use, you then have to play nice with your billing system, a lot of companies that I've been with almost all of them, except for one, use NetSuite, which is typically your ideal stack. And you have to basically have the two systems play nice like you're going to do a set of calculations and understanding of ARR, and subscription and term and everything else and then basically tell the other system, here's what you need to go and do with that data. Here's how you need to create sales orders and invoices and renewals and billing schedules. And at any point, we may send you something else to upsell and down sell, etc. and your systems need to be handling that. I've never seen it. I've never joined a company where that process was great at the get go.
Sandeep Jain: Understood. Well, from a NetSuite perspective, running subscription billing, do you find this, is this flexible? What do you think about the flexibility of the tools to support the amendments and renewal cases? That's something that is brought by all, every time I speak with somebody who say I have a very complex or unique renewal process or an amendment. And so what do you think about the complexity of the tools or ability of the tools to do service, this core requirement of SaaS businesses?
Navin Persaud: It's never really that can solution, do it. It's almost always do you have the skill in house to make it happen? I've seen this time and time again. So I mean, we just came off of a CPQ implementation, it was a huge lift. We're now sort of like cleaning up thereafter. But now we're focused on the next piece, which is like how do we integrate this data that we're getting on a CPQ, to our billing system, and what needs to change or what needs to be accommodated so that we can automatically send data back and forth. So it's not a capability issue, it's whether you have the skill and hours to turn on the feature functions that are necessary to accommodate. Quite often, I've seen that suite instances really just be stood up to generate invoices, and a lot of manual work being done by a finance team, just to accommodate that. You really don't want to be building like a massive building team, because that's just an administrative burden into GNA. What you want to be able to do is understand the areas whereby you can automate things, so that you can eliminate the time it takes for you to send out invoices, so you can improve the time it takes to collect cash, so that you can keep customers happy and renewing. So you can just be sort of pro active. And so like to recap, it's never the capabilities of the systems. It's the complexity and the resources of skill to actually make it happen.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. And Navin, any thoughts on usage-based billing?
Navin Persaud: As a customer, I've seen it. So I've bought a lot of SaaS in my SaaS career. You have Salesforce and DocuSign, all these other solutions. And I'm constantly managing how many users do we have available today team, because we're hiring more people. And I need to make sure that I need to either go buy some or use what I have. And some companies do really well, they get you right when you need that license. You know, you can go into their self-serve like Sales force, the greatest example, I can go on self-serve my own licenses right now, whatever I need, I don't have to talk to anybody, will I get a deal? No, but I will get the licenses I need right now. If I'm thinking I'm going to need to make a bigger purchase off to call up my rep, and we'll have to talk through it that way. But night or day that's afforded to me, and that's available. Other companies have soft caps. I've dealt with a number of vendors whereby you can go over we'll catch you on a true up either at renewal or at some interval that you reach through their head. It's easier for me as a customer, because then you know, I can deal with it. It's more of like a deferred pain and it doesn't interrupt my business flow. I sort of liked that model being the vendor. I'm not sure how much I like that model, because I'm potentially leaving some error on the table, or I'm potentially hoping that my team has the right visibility to the reporting to understand where those trips scenarios exist. So they can go after that revenue at the right time.
Sandeep Jain: Understood. So you're talking about mostly like a seat-based model where your number of seats are growing…
Navin Persaud: Unless you're also referring to like how much you use the product, DocuSign is a great example of that, I believe they have two models. I've used both where you have seat based or you have envelope based. An envelope base where they basically say, you get this many envelopes in a period. And you can just have as many different users in the system as you want doesn't matter, we're just going to charge you based on the number of envelopes you send out. And when you exceed that, we're automatically just going to bump you to the next year.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. So I was asking more about that use case, which is, as a revenue offset, 1Password,that's if you decide to have usage billing for your own product. I don't know if you have it currently or not. But if it is based on I don't know, number of different sites, or number of different licenses that are stored in 1Password,and you charge your customers on the basis of that, does that add complexity to your own billing, like how you build your customers and how you do your operations for your customers?
Navin Persaud: On the self-serve side, companies like that, not really. I mean, every time you add a user, you get a charge. And when it's done through like systems like Stripe, or otherwise, the get you as soon as you add the user your credit cards on file, you get sent an invoice immediately. Where it becomes more challenging is when you have to move to invoicing as terms of payment, or something other than credit card. That's where you're having to understand that the change in usage, translate it into your billing process, and then issue an invoice. That's where it can be more complicated if you don't have the right systems talking to each other at the right times to actually automate that work. If that work is manual, it's not scalable.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. I think the first use case which is more an advanced sort of billing, so pre-buy is what you need. So if I'm going from 5 seats to 10, I go and do the transaction on the website, which is going to be simple versus the scenario where somebody has to monitor how much I'm using. And then at the end of the quarter, month or year, generate an invoice based on how much I used; this requires a different billing scenario.
Navin Persaud: Great. Other companies are also adopting like packs or bundles, whereby you can pre buy, you know, like a bundle of 30or 40 seats. And then you can, you know, start using them and filling them upas you go for the company. You get the immediate purchase of that number of licenses straight up for the user, you have a threshold right away that you can fill and then figure out once you get past it.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. So, Navin, when you look at this from now, let's say 100,000 foot view, B2CB2B,CPQ billing usage. And you look at this whole thing, is there one big challenge that sort of comes out for you saying, well, if somebody would have solved that actually will make sense or make your life easier as a RevOps person?
Navin Persaud: So I'll say this, the start, I love Salesforce. I'm like, I absolutely adore the platform, because it has made a different career for me. But the way that it's designed, unless you have the right skill in house, and your know what you're doing, and you have a plan, you can fall off the Yellow Brick Road in an instant, you can then decide to go and customize a bunch of things. And then realize, oh my god, I should have just configured some things because now it's so much complexity. You know, CPQ is a great product. I've implemented it three times now. And the biggest challenge each time that I've implemented, it was that we didn't start with it. We ended up with it. Because we realized the homegrown or existing process we had just wasn't going to cut it anymore, was creating downstream problems with our billing our ability to invoice, track renewals, understand churn, we needed something systematic programmatic. And moving to that system was the biggest pain every time that I've done it, not because the system is a pain, it's because you have a wealth of migrated data that you have to translate over. So there's advice that I could give to someone, it's don't wait. Don't try and build it on your own. Figure out a plan that's scalable for your business now, and portable life and when you need to move to something else. But if you don't allow for that, you're just deferring a whole lot of pain for your future ops team that's going to come in here and try and solve what you didn't plan for from the get go.
Sandeep Jain: Got it, got it Navin. Anything about the interface between the CPQ and the billing systems. I think you alluded to that earlier. I think he talked about NetSuite versus and there could be other accounting systems as well, or billing systems, I should say?
Navin Persaud: You really need a partnership there with your ops team or whoever is going to manage your CPQ and your billing systems because you know, your hand in hand, you have one solution, generating quotes and renewals. Another solution highly dependent on that output to generate invoices and ensure payment. They have to be speaking the same language from like how you're recording revenue, if you have ramp deals, what are you going to invoice, is it staggered? What amendments look like? And then related to that is compensation, something that we're not even talking about here, but you have another team and finance needs to figure out how to pay your sellers, and how to incent them, and how to ensure that the revenue and the data they're getting is accurate and aligns to the plans and programs that are in place. So it's not just billing and solving that issue. There's another element of compensation that also has to play nice in this world.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. And follow up on this. This the management of this accounting system of the billing system fall into the RevOps team or the finance team sort of owns that, I'm assuming it's a mixed responsibility, but I was just curious too?
Navin Persaud: It is definitely a mixed responsibility. One I'm continuing to learn and understand and grow through. And in my world today, if it's in Salesforce, my team owns it in terms of understanding untangling, making sure the data is accurate. We then partner with our finance teams to ensure that their invoices are accurate, and they go out the way they need to go. Finance owns everything, once it's passed it over to their system, invoice collections, all that thing. The ongoing management of subscription is where you really need to ensure that you have the right resources in place, regardless of which team so that you can understand those one offs, those nuances, you know, sales reps will always you know, apologize in advance to all my sales reps, they will always take the simplest path again. And because that's the nature of the beast and I applaud them for it. And I'm always trying to make them have that simplest path. The reality is, you got to make sure it's right, because then you have so many other things hinging off the accuracy of that an accurate invoice accurate comp, a renewal that needs to go out in a year's time, an amendment that could happen at any notice, a notice of churn expansion, etc. All these things hinge off accurate data and your system. And if you're billing if you're CPQ engine isn't accurately you know, keeping track of that data and managing contracts, you've just created a cycle of pain
Sandeep Jain: Actually a good segue to this is how to structure the teams. Like you have done earlier talked about Sales Ops being more tactical, RevOps is now being more encompassing term. But now there is also this billing piece we were just talking about. So what's your recommendation, how to structure the teams to sort of minimize the friction and maximize your and go to market efficiency, I guess?
Navin Persaud: Yeah, I can talk a little bit about my team, we’re structured into three pillars, I have like a technical side of the team that handles our CRM and all the related integrations. They manage for of our projects and what we prioritize, I have a Reporting Analytics and soon to be managing the subscription or deal desk function. There did generally ensure that you know, the top of funnel is working, pipelines progressing, deals are getting closed accurately, rinse repeat, and then the analytics from that. The third function is a newer one, one that I'm starting up in sort of like the growth ops function. A resource or team of resources dedicated to understanding the customer success business, to ensure that there are renewals and amendments and upsells and growth. A repeated trend that I've seen in every SaaS company had been with, you grow through expansion, you may acquire logos on acquisition, but you grow on the backs of your customers. So ensuring that you have the right level of insight and data around how your customers are performing over time, their health, their metrics, etc. is absolutely vital for that engine to be, you know, firing on all cylinders.
Sandeep Jain: That's very interesting. You describe that, Navin. And so companies have a customer support function, which is a post-sales support, but there's also customer success, which is post sales account management. Is your customer happy enough? Are we solving their pain points so that you know once the time comes to renewal, you see the flywheel effect at that point. Is this, How is your this third pillar correlated with a customer success team?
Navin Persaud: So shout out to all my customer success colleagues, customer success as a function, they're the quarterback in my mind. If you follow sports, specifically football, they're the quarterback. So sales makes a sale, they get the glory, then it's off to the customer success rep to make you successful. So speaking as a customer, I've worked with some amazing customer success reps that have increased my time to value with their software simply by being a knowledgeable and accessible resource around their product. And that's no different now, like with our customer success mission is ensuring that we have successful onboarding, that we have a single point of contact on all product related questions that were up to date on new feature functions, that we have our renewals on time. Like it's a super important function, because any subscription business cannot succeed if subscriptions aren't renewed. And your customer success function is the one that is totally armed at making sure that happens.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. So what you're saying is, look, there is a place for customer success as a project manager or as a quarterback to make sure that the account is overall successful. But this third pillar that you talked about, how does that function relate with the overall customer success team?
Navin Persaud: Yeah, partner in crime almost like to help that team, understand their customers, segment them, help them understand renewal, help them coalesce all of the data that comes that companies like us collect to understand the health of that customer adoption usage, whether they're happy, generate a health score, which can then understand customers that are likely to renew customers are not likely to renew, what actions can we take to mitigate? What actions can we take to create advocates and promoters to grow and expand and create virality within your product, and more advocates, all of these things are data points that lives scattered in your CRM, or if you're lucky enough to have like a solution, like a gain site. They live there. But you need people to help pull it out and present it in a way that you can action it on a daily, monthly quarterly basis.
Sandeep Jain: It's really interesting you're talking about this. Over the weekend, I was talking to a friend, he's a Sales Engineering Director at a security company, they are like the 5 billion in value that file. So they're a big company. And he's like Sandeep, I'm in sales engineering, I need visibility into what happens. It is what is happening with my existing customer accounts. And I think they're using gainsiteas well. It's like, well, I don't know, the visibility into the data that I can give to my team that they can make some sense out of it, and they can start helping them. So his particular ask was, look, I need to find out what features are being used by certain sort of customers like, what are the tickets that they're finding out? Are there about feature requests, which means that you're engaged with the product, or is it about more complaining that, hey, this thing doesn't work? So he's like, I'm flying blind. So can just somebody provide me the data? And so I can kind of relate that comment with what you were talking about, is there's a separate customer success team, but your team is in the middle that can help provide that visibility.
Navin Persaud: Absolutely.
Sandeep Jain: So very interesting. Another related question, when you look at this whole B2B and B2Cworkflows for a product, lead growth company, is there like one of the minimum number of tools that you think teams off such as yours have to deal with to get things done? Now there's a CRM going to be there, there is a billing system CPQ. Like for usage, would you think about another system? Like how many systems do you think people shouldn’t?
Navin Persaud: Generally, SaaS companies have what I call like the SaaS spinal cord, you've got your marketing automation, that passes through your CRM, and then you have your billing system, and then connected to all of those things should be your product or way to provision it. Those are like the four core things that should be standard in every SaaS company. How are you marketing acquiring customers? Are you managing pipeline? How are you billing them? And then where are you provisioning them? Every SaaS companies should have those elements, it could be all one element. And then you have another element for your product, but they've got them all represented in some way or another. Each of those pieces of tech though, require ownership. So that you understand both the process and the data as your workflow moves through them. Without like naming any names, but I feel like companies tend to focus in one area and not so much in the other and they leave these bottlenecks. For example, great acquiring leads, but don't really think about how to make sure they get to the right humans at the right time so that they can make the right impactful connections to create pipeline, where they have a great CRM and don't think about, how are we going to sell a product? How are we going to price it quoted, renew it, etc. We're having an invoicing system that just does invoices and leads you to hire so many people in finance, because it's all manual. And lastly, don't have a means to provision the product in a timely manner. That's probably one of the things that I've seen in a lot of other companies and that it's super manual, it's not connected, there's no connective tissue when you close the deal, it says it starts here, when does it actually available to the customer for use? Those are all like, I say that the four key areas that you need to have structure and teams around and specific ownership to those systems, and then they all need to be sort of working together collaboratively. So if there's an operational function across those departments, they should all be talking to each other.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. And Navin, if there's one or two things that you think can solve your biggest pain, what would those be assuming Gods are smiling at you today?
Navin Persaud: Let's play this fictitious example. Let's say in year two, I landed another SaaS company. And I get in there, I'll be like, okay, day one, I wouldn’t know how I'm doing it today, if you're selling anything, if you're just starting out, or if you have at least some inertia, we need to standardize this now. Because the pain, it's a road of pain, to get to CPQ once you have a lot of customers, because then you have this massive amount of history to crawl through to accurately understand all of your customers, their commitments, what they're worth, when they renew, etc, that the project that could be simple, becomes quite extensive. And I think a big barrier for a lot of companies is that, yes, Salesforce is a great product out there. But they feel as though they have to reach to a certain size before it makes like financial sense to get there. Totally get it, they got to figure it out somewhere in between, because like waiting, makes what could be simple, really difficult. CPQ like the Salesforce product, it's not hard to implement. What makes this hard is the time that you've waited, before you actually decide to go and do it. That was that's what makes it difficult. So they need a bridge, that there's definitely a market for companies that are atX to X size, that needs something to just manage that within their CRM in a more structured function. Format, don't do custom will try and build something, find something that's successful in the marketplace, it's compatible, and run with it.
Sandeep Jain: One thing that's a great piece of advice, Navin, and one thing that I was thought about while you're speaking is if I'm a customer, and I will self-serve experience. Now if I'm dealing with two separate products, one with a CPQ and billing. So I need to self-service experience for buying. So that's brought by the CPQ. But I also need a sales of experience for invoicing. Now, if those are two traditionally separate systems, what happens to me as a customer? Am I looking at two different universes then, or how does that work? Actually, I'm just thinking aloud here.
Navin Persaud: Yeah, from a self-service standpoint, if it's a credit card transaction, it's typically one system. You buy you transact, you get invoice it all in one, sort of stripe is making a killing. It's when you get to limitations in your product, because your product is sort of like an extension or a legacy billing system that is maybe reaching a little further. And you didn't build a way for customers to move from tier one to tier two. And you then say, well, you've got to talk to a human. So there's a little problem, you have to go to a human. And you add, like inadvertently, you're adding friction to that.
Sandeep Jain: Yeah, got it, Navin. Actually, I was referring to that particular workflow because what I've heard from folks is, look, credit card payments is easy schmoozing. You know, that's everybody gets it. But the problem is when the deal size goes up, your number I've heard is more than $2,000, some companies have limits on how much money you can put on the corporate credit card. So they say well, I need an upgrade for $3,000. I know what I want to buy as a sale person, so could you give me a quote, a self-serve quote that I can give it to my team. And I want to get an invoice as well there, but without talking to anybody. So that's where the self-serve CPQ self-serve billing, and bank to bank transfers and all that thing sort of comes up, which is I think what you're saying is a human has to get involved. As the consumer doesn't want it, the vendor does want it. But it just so happens that that you have to deal with.
Navin Persaud: Huge pain point, think of government entities, nonprofits, companies with you know, certain invoice requirements, like a lot of companies would love to buy self-serve, but can't because they have rules and policies that requires a paper invoice or a digital invoice, or they have a VAT ID or they have some kind of requirement that prevents them from transacting through a credit card. And that almost always in what I've seen remains talking to human.
Sandeep Jain: Got it. So how do we get human out of the quote of the cash?
Navin Persaud: It's not always how you get out, its how do you ensure that you're deploying your humans in the most effective way as possible. Like, if you're you know, I love sports,so it's a great time loving sports right now with football and hockey and basketball and baseball going on. And you think of yourself as a manager, how do you deploy your players so that they can be efficient and lead you to winning outcomes, and deploying sellers to small transactions that are high volume, that's not success? That's employee churn. That's difficult to manage, it's difficult for your reps to get to quota, your response time suffer. So those are the things that you've got to look for to understand, okay, you've got great volume and velocity here. But you don't have an automated means to. It's all for it. And what you really want to do is put your humans on these larger customers to expand them and grow them. And that's what maybe takes more time. This smaller flywheel stuff that opens and closes quickly, you need a system to do that quickly. You know, there's a stat out there today that says, most buying decisions are 60% made before even talking to a human. And I agree, any SaaS that I've looked to buy, I've already done my research, I've taken as much of my demo, I've gone into G2 crowd or Trust Radius. I've looked at their support documentation. I've done everything that I think I need to do. Then at the last point, I'll be like, Okay, let me see your demo and send me a quote, that's when I'll engage as human.
Sandeep Jain: That's a good way of putting in. And it's not about taking people out of the equation, but figuring out where they are most useful. And I think that's the big, big challenge in quote to cash today. Awesome. I did hear that calendar bell, a few seconds back. So I know the clock is ticking. So before we let you go Navin, do you have any recommendation on a resource, like a book, or a podcast, or maybe a blog that you want to share with our audience, that something that you identified with, and you want to share why as well?
Navin Persaud: Two things. One, I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan. Anyone who knows me probably knows the character that I fit in really well there. So I won't say it. The book that I've really enjoyed, as I've worked through it, as it's called “The subtle art of not giving enough”. And it's a great book, it really just summarizes that. There's only so many things in your life that really requires all of your attention, and effort to actually like, throw your passion behind it. And really be upset when you don't have the outcome. Everything else just work through it, it happen. Because if you don't, you're just going to stress yourself out. You're gonna have these outcomes, you're gonna have this all around you where people are not going to want to approach you, you're going to be combative, you're just never going to be happy. And once you realize that there's this inflection point in your life where so many so many things that I can manage within my control, to really, really care about and the rest, I still care about them. And if it's out of my control, it's out of my control. And it's a super resource. Mark Manson is the author, the subtle art of not giving a f$%^, basically the counterintuitive approach to living a good life. I recommend for anyone in a high stress situation.
Sandeep Jain: So between fishing and this book that's how you manage your time, I guess.
Navin Persaud: I do. I try and get away from the screens as much as possible connecting with nature. And it's really for me, it's not about fishing. It's about being somewhere, some quiet some nature, focusing on just a single thing that bobber in the water and letting everything else just kind of like leave my mind. It's amazing. It's refreshing. It allows you to recharge and come back. Focus on the 30 things that enter my mind, the minute Monday 8am rolls around.
Sandeep Jain: I love this, Navin, and I'll actually read this thing. The book that you suggested is just makes so much sense. While I hear you say that. So hey, look, it's been a fascinating conversation. I wish you the very best of luck at 1Password. The company is doing awesome. That applies for a lot of growth, which means a lot of work. Good work for you and your team. So best wishes there and thank you for your time today.
Navin Persaud: Great, thank you. Take care.